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General Approach for WSOBP Rules

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This topic contains 101 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  prusch 7 years ago.

Viewing 12 posts - 91 through 102 (of 102 total)
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  • #1247

    dude, if there are no rebuttals, then that means the team that shoots first has a big advantage. with the skills being so good the the world series, if there are no rebuttals then the team that shoots first can miss twice and still have the first shot at winning!!! thats crazy and unfail. rebuttals should be in the game hands down.

    Do you realize how many games are going to be played in the first two days of the WSOBP III??? I mean, in the prelims, the chances of two world championship caliber teams playing eachother in the first division is pretty slim. Not everybody who plays in the WSOBP is even mediocre, there are a lot of HORRIBLE teams that play, plenty of horrible such teams that the advancing team won’t win games over teams who play games without missing a single cup. How often does that happen? Honestly? I mean, I’ve played a couple games where we’ve only missed 1 shot each, I’ve seen other teams on the same level, but teams who do not miss ANY shots during games consistently? I’m pretty sure that’s just a little exaggerated

    #1248

    mlayth
    Member

    indeed.. usually people will miss 1 or 2 shots and then lose. thats why rules that try to counter these timing concerns, and explitiy cater to teams "never missing" let other teams that miss once or twice fall through the cracks..

    Many times my games during the preliminaries were some of the first ones finished, and we barely won. Maybe I got unlucky and had a tougher bracket than some other people..

    But I would have at least liked to rebuttal the game only ended 8 minutes in ..
    Hell I don’t know, maybe a large light. And after 15 minutes it goes from green to red and engages sudden death / no rebuttals in the preliminaries :D

    For real though, I understand why things are the way they are and I think billy, duncan, and skinny do a great job. The only thing I would really like to change is having each player on a team get a ball for rebuttals in the finals (instead of just 1 for them to share)

    #1249

    prusch
    Member

    I feel that there should be rebuttals for the prelim rounds as well. I really like the time limit idea – as limitting games to a certain time was the biggest reason that they limitted redemption to the 3rd day (or so I inferred from this forum).

    My feeling from the skill level at the World Series was that most of the time, those redemption cups would be missed- meaning allowing redemption wouldn’t even be an issue most of the time. And the teams that are up to the challenge should be able to knock out a 3 cup OT without too much difficulty. And if time did become an issue – just cut out redemptions after that 15 minute time limit.

    #1250

    indeed.. usually people will miss 1 or 2 shots and then lose. thats why rules that try to counter these timing concerns, and explitiy cater to teams "never missing" let other teams that miss once or twice fall through the cracks..

    Many times my games during the preliminaries were some of the first ones finished, and we barely won. Maybe I got unlucky and had a tougher bracket than some other people..

    But I would have at least liked to rebuttal the game only ended 8 minutes in ..
    Hell I don’t know, maybe a large light. And after 15 minutes it goes from green to red and engages sudden death / no rebuttals in the preliminaries :D

    For real though, I understand why things are the way they are and I think billy, duncan, and skinny do a great job. The only thing I would really like to change is having each player on a team get a ball for rebuttals in the finals (instead of just 1 for them to share)

    I actually prefer only one ball for rebuttals. If you lose the game in regulation time, why should you be allowed to get two chances at redemption? You already lost!!! it’s like your ‘hail mary’ pass. The chances of it working are slim to none and that’s the way it should be. It also makes it more of a ‘team’ rebuttal if you both have to sink your ball on the first try (no misses by EITHER of you) in order to force overtime. Your teammate misses his first shot by a mile, and you sink 3 in a row to force overtime, where’s the teamwork in that?

    #1251

    mlayth
    Member

    Your teammate misses his first shot by a mile, and you sink 3 in a row to force overtime, where’s the teamwork in that?

    The point of team work in beer pong isn’t to be evenly and consistently matching each other. Everybody goes cold, and everybody needs to be carried at some point in time. Thats just fact, no matter how good you are.

    It’s also the point of having a great teammate, to pull you through those times.
    You take turns carrying each other, and occasionally annhilate people when you’re both on at the same time.

    Personally, I don’t understand where the teamwork is in only have ONE Ball.
    You’re cutting someone out of the equation, and a "team" can be beaten with only one "player" having shot a ball. Since only one player is participating, that sounds more like beating a person to me than being a team..

    As you may have guessed, I also prefer 2 balls for rollbacks.. even if there is cap of 4 cups a turn. Having only 1 ball for rollbacks the stronger player can take it every time. Since it’s just the strongest player shooting, this again disrupts the teamwork aspects.

    We saw this happen in the last match of the WSOBPII.
    If you give 2 balls for rollbacks, then both players on the team shoot.. and it matters more how both players are shooting. Instead of a team with one good player and one exceptional player.

    Also: Guess how I got knocked out at the world series???
    Down 1 cup to 1 cup, after an exceptionally fast 3-cup a turn game, the other team got 2 balls to shoot at last cup.. because randomly they started first!

    So they got 2 balls to shoot, made last cup, and then we’re only given one?

    So I missed! Balled slipped out of my hand, with a motion you can hardly even consider it a throw. Game over. Single elimination and everything came down to the fact that they shot first since my partner didn’t even get to use his ball… Not exactly fair in my book, and the team we lost too was streaky and couldn’t even preform after beating us. That tells me if we went into overtime that we would have come out on top.

    #1252

    prusch
    Member

    Your teammate misses his first shot by a mile, and you sink 3 in a row to force overtime, where’s the teamwork in that?

    I’m not sure anyone was proposing the individual shoot til you miss rule (which I agree takes out the team aspect). I believe the situation Sean would like changed is that when your team has one cup left in a redemption situation, that both players get a shot at it. Hopefully he would agree that if there were two cups left, that both players would have to hit to force OT, or that if there were 3 left – that the team would need one double back, and then one out of the next two.

    Until seeing the footage of the last game, I was under the assumption that players from one team were to alternate who got the 3rd shot on the one ball rollback. The teams in my group all played the whole World Series that way (out of plain ignorance). Much respect to the perfect game Neil tossed in the final – but for the future I would like to see the rules read that the teammates have to alternate who takes that 3rd shot on the rollback.

    #1253

    mlayth
    Member

    Much respect to the perfect game Neil tossed in the final – but for the future I would like to see the rules read that the teammates have to alternate who takes that 3rd shot on the rollback.

    Thats one way to go for it.. personally I would rather see a 4-cup per turn maximum and both players shoot.

    This way you don’t have to keep track of who shot the last ball for each team..etc leading to conflicts and arguments that nobody is going to be able to prove. (one of the things the wsobp rules seek to avoid in the first place)

    And yes for rebuttals, rather than 1 player shoot til you miss I would rather see both players get a ball, and if they both make their shot they get the balls back (or 1 ball) to shoot again…etc wash rinse repeat.. This would only make a difference if you’re down to last cup anyway – which is fair because at last cup the other team gets to start with 2 balls.

    #1254

    skinny
    Member

    I promise you guys that all of these issues will be revisited before the official rules are decided on. At the end of the day though, you have to realize that perfect ‘fairness’ is 1) only in the eye of the beholder, and 2) impossible to achieve. Look at it this way: In the NFL Playoffs, if a game goes to OT, they flip a coin to see who gets possession. Now, obviously there are a lot of people out there that think this is unfair, but that’s just the way it is. We do try to achieve a ruleset that everyone can view as reasonably fair and sensible.

    For the sake of determining the rules for the WSOBP, we have to consider a number of factors, and try to come up with rules that suit everyones (including our) needs. No matter what we choose, someone will end up on the short end of the stick. It is most important to us, therefore, to make the rules as clear an unambiguous as possible.

    That said, we do read all of your comments, and do factor them into our decision making process. Again, we will discuss all of these issues, but not just yet, as there are far bigger fish to fry at the moment…

    #1255

    aniello44
    Member

    Prusch — When the tournament first started I thought the same thing..that when you did roll it back..whoever made the shot to roll it back wasn’t able to shoot again, but when I read the rules over again..it didn’t state that anywhere so thats how we played during the tournament — As for the final game we played, me and Tone did alternate every turn we went. If you watch the game..I took every first shot, so when Tone did bring it back I took the third shot, thus shooting in the order of me, Tone, then me again. Is that what you mean by alternating the shots? In the final game there was an argument that me and Tone didn’t alternate during one of our turns, but they were wrong. I know it did seem like I took consecutive shots, but I never did at all during that game.

    I think the team should get to decide who takes the last shot. It’s just like any other sport, If a player is shooting/playing well at a specific time, then the team should be able to chose who shoots — the object is to win and as a team thats exactly what you should be trying to do. Obviously I’m going to be for this because it worked in our favor, but shouldn’t the team decide who shots the shot rather than not having a choice? For me, personally, I’de rather the right to choose.

    #1256

    prusch
    Member

    Niel – to clarify my point, here’s the way your game went….

    Turn 1: You Hit, Tone Missed
    Turn 2: You Hit, Tone Hit, You Hit.
    Turn 3: You Hit, Tone Missed
    Turn 4: You Hit, Tone Hit, You Hit.
    Turn 5: Tone Hit, You Hit.

    Each team starts a turn with two shots, and the order of how those shots are taken shouldn’t dictate who takes the rollback shot. For that final game, I know you went first every turn (that is – except for when there were two cups left), presumably to argue the point that you were alternating shots for each specific turn, a point you made that the documentary guys definitely got in their sound footage.

    My point was that a team should alternate who takes the rollback shot (disregard the order of shooting for the first two shots). For your 2nd rollback in your 4th turn, I would argue that Tone should have to take that 2nd rollback shot.

    You only had two rollbacks, so we’re talking about one shot. I also realize that you both were shooting well enough that it probably wouldn’t have affected any outcome. As far as it’s overall affect, most games will only have one or two rollbacks anyways, but in the case that a team does get 3 rollbacks – that’s a potential 3 extra shots that one team member can take, which is no small thing when there’s only 10 cups on the table.

    The rules didn’t call for that last year though, so props to you for taking that opportunity. I thought I scoured the rules enough, but obviously I missed that point (otherwise I’d probably have done the same thing, and taken all of my team’s rollback shots).

    #1257

    aniello44
    Member

    Ok..I think I get what your saying. Your saying that teams should alternate the roll back shot if they get more then one in a game. For example, If we roll it back on our first turn, and I take the roll back, the next time we roll it back then Tone takes the next one(regardless of what order you took the first two shots in). I understand the argument..the way I’ve always done it is whoever the hot shooter is at that moment we give the shot too. Or if the roll back is on a specific rack that one person likes, and the other person doesn’t, then that person will take the roll back, etc, etc. One of the first things I wanted to make sure of before the tournament started was the roll back rule, because that could be the difference between making or missing a crucial cup, and winning or losing a game.

    By the way, you were right about me not taking every first shot..Tone did take the first shot on the 2 rack.

    -Neil

    #1258

    prusch
    Member

    You definitely played it the right way… take whoever is hot. I definitely would have played it differently had I known (and if it doesn’t change for III, I’d play it the way you did)…… but if there is a debate, I’d argue that it should alternate between teammates.

    - Peter

Viewing 12 posts - 91 through 102 (of 102 total)

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