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LEANing

This topic contains 164 replies, has 46 voices, and was last updated by  dwissbrun2 4 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #35796

    gshunt
    Member
    If you lengthen the table not only would it make the shot a little more difficult

    and honestly… does it need to be more difficult? at the world series, about half the field goes 6-6 or worse… my guess is that those players don’t want the game to be any harder. the points about people who have good hand/eye coordination are valid. a guy like pop who shoots 70% on bpong tables will not have a dramatic drop in his percentage if you move him back 2 feet. a guy who shoots 40% will probably drop to 25-30%. does shooting 25% while your opponent shoots 60% sound fun to anyone??? i wouldn’t think so.

    so you may think you’ll draw in more people… however i think it might actually scare more people off. so then what you’ve got is a situation where you’ve made people run away, who you know are willing to spend the $$$ to go to vegas/compete in satellites with things the way they are, on the assumption, but with no guarantee, that others will show up in enough numbers to replace those lost and then some on top of that in order to make a gain. i’m not sure i buy that argument, or would be willing to take the risk if i was bpong.

    Lastly, rather than make a whole new table, maybe something can be manufactured that can hook on to the end of each side of the 8ft bpong tables. A platform where the cups would be placed and makes the table 10 or 11 ft.

    this has been brought up, diagrams posted in the forums, and debated. it’s a possibility.

    A couple quick things:

    First I feel like you can argue in the very first post or two on this thread that mattym posted there are a couple elements one could call biased or disrespectful (to be fair so were some of the responses leveled at him so we’re far from all angels). However, since then if you read the whole thread I feel like mattym has been QUITE respectful and decent in listening to arguements, actually thinking about them, forming an opinion, and responding. So I have to disagree with some of the tone of the posts I’ve seen since last night. That said occasionaly he has come across as a bit defensive just now, but thats generally as someone is attacking his character/humanity/moral conduct (sarcasm to an extent) every couple posts. My recommendation to mattym is to just ignore those kind of attacks and focus on the points, but he is more than welcome to respond if he wants.

    Secondly, in regards to the above quote. I would say I am more in Piotr’s camp on this one, but for an additional reason. Prusch pointed out a few leaning threads ago that he first went to WS II because when he saw the video of WS I everyone was missing, and he felt like he had a chance and could be better than that. I know when I first got into tournament beer pong and was looking online at videos before entering in a tournament the week after I turned 21 I saw some San Diego league videos and saw lots of missing and felt like I could compete. I then saw CtFK in the finals, and felt sure they were obviously very good, but there was still plenty of missing in the finals and that if that was what it took to win 50K it felt at the very least quite attainable.

    To most people the current standard of 10/12-10/14 is just not attainable. Now with a longer table would the bad players shoot worse as well, certainly. However, I have yet to meet a bad player who has any accurate comprehension of their actual shooting percentage, new players who are inexperienced just think "hey I’m good", but if they see no missing by a good team they are discouraged as anyone can see that they are not that good. So in my opinion lowering everyone’s shooting percentages actually might help encourage WS attendance. I don’t know for certain, but it is my gut feeling.

    That said, I am still against the 10 foot table as I dont think this is a big enough change to justify having to get all new tables, and possibly in reality over time lengthening the talent gap between goo and bad players to create more of a disparity (just in that 10ft is harder then 8ft, thus the better team over time should have more of an advantage on a harder table as they will have practiced more and thus less variability). So to be clear my above argument is predicated totally on the implied skill of the best players, even though in reality it wont change who wins it may change who is attracted to the WS.

    And Lastly, I think Piotr is right that in the short term worse players will suffer less of a percentage loss than good players. This is simply due to a simple regression towards the mean. I feel like the mean percentage for an average person at beer pong who has played a bit (not tournaments, just generally) might be like 30% or so. Servicable players are now at like 40%, very good players at like 50%, and the best around 60%-65%. Some people can argue that someone is at 70%, but the statistics make me wary of claiming anyone is that high, and I think Piotr in general can back me up on this. Therefore if everyone drops on the new table it is my gut instinct that a larger percentage drop will be seen by the top level then by the lower levels. Think of it as say a bell curve. Someone can correct me if I am incorrect on this btw, it is possible.

    Well apologies on the overly long post, but there it is.

    #35797

    dwissbrun2
    Member

    correct me if i’m wrong, but weren’t the shooting percentages of the finals of this world series something like this:

    Vince: 70%
    Pop: 69%
    Ron: 50%
    Andy: 35%

    so i don’t get where this 10/12 comes from? yeah it happens… but certainly isn’t the norm.

    #35798

    gshunt
    Member

    correct me if i’m wrong, but weren’t the shooting percentages of the finals of this world series something like this:

    Vince: 70%
    Pop: 69%
    Ron: 50%
    Andy: 35%

    so i don’t get where this 10/12 comes from? yeah it happens… but certainly isn’t the norm.

    Fair enough, and quite true. However last years final was 10/12. No it is not the norm, but it is much more of a reality now. Look at every video you can from WS III and before, or just any games then and 10/12 almost never happened. I’d say on day 3 of the WS now 10/12 or the like happens pretty regularly (not frequently, just it happens at noticeable regular intervals). Also I would say that if I amended my statement to 10/14 or say 10/15 (which is still better than the average team can handle almost ever), then those types of games happen a ton on day 3. Or at least that is my perception. That said, yes obviously there are games where both teams shoot bad, or one team is blown out, I mean it is beer pong there is a shit load of variability. It is tough to reduce that variability with a 10 cup game, and its one of the reasons the best team doesnt always win.

    That said, I do see where you are coming from, and your point is well taken. I may have overestimated that part of my earlier post, but I am sure you can also see where I was going with it in general.

    #35799

    One of the main things bad (IMO) about the 10 ft table or no leaning rule is the fact that all games/matches will take considerably longer amounts of time to complete. It’s also boring as hell to watch miss after miss after miss after miss. Watching someone clear a table in 12 shots is pretty impressive, though. The game needs to remain interesting. People love watching someone make a bunch of cups in a row (my personal record is one cup in a row). Lots of scoring makes it fun. I’d rather watch a hockey game that ends up 8-5 instead of a yawner that seemingly goes on forever & ends 1-0. While the best players will adapt, as stated, the hit cup % will certainly fall significantly. FWIW, I say leave the WSOBP rulebook as is & get on with promoting the sport & getting more people involved. For the tourneys I’m looking into starting, it’ll be WSOBP rules all the way. If someone doesn’t like those rules, fuck ‘em-they ain’t playin’. It won’t be up for debate. If they want to play against top-level players, it’ll be by top-level rules. Let the rookie players adapt to pro rules instead of pro players adapting to rookie rules. It ain’t Little League, where you can’t even lead off. Sheesh.

    #35800

    dwissbrun2
    Member

    Also I would say that if I amended my statement to 10/14 or say 10/15 (which is still better than the average team can handle almost ever), then those types of games happen a ton on day 3.

    but what’s wrong with that??? it’s day 3, the best 128 teams out of 480… they should be hitting 10/15

    #35801

    dwissbrun2
    Member

    i don’t know if anybody reads any pages prior to the current one, so i’ll take the moment to repeat myself.

    say the table is changed, or an extension is added. where does it end? maybe now people say the cups are too big… or too small. maybe we should play with 15 cups instead of 10. why is there rebuttal? on and on.

    here’s my point, you can change things til your face goes blue and it still won’t make everyone happy. 1000 people in vegas this year were happy… yet people on this forum are trying to make people who have never even taken the time to go a satellite happy.

    so say you put the extension bar on the table. then people are going to say… "well, tall guys have an advantage cause their arms are longer and thus are closer to the cups." people will ALWAYS make that argument. they want to get rid of LEANING, not make the distance further to shoot from.

    and the best part of that argument is… even with elbow rule a taller person has longer arms… thus a 6ft7in guy has a longer forearm than a 5ft9in guy. so even with elbow rule tall people have an "advantage."

    sorry, i’m just not going to buy any of this

    #35802

    pauls
    Member

    My buddies been working on a prototype thats a foldable extension that will attach to any 4 way foldable 8ft table(bpong.bingbong,portopong) it extends from the end of the table about a foot. This is solely for the purpose of changing perception to outsiders, also will end the constant readjusting of cups due to OD lean.

    Is this something that current pongers are interested in?

    I would not be interested in anything like that. I think the game is fine as is. Not only does that seem like an unnecessary and large change to the game, it would also be a hassle to carry extra shit around whenever I move my table.

    #35803

    gshunt
    Member
    Also I would say that if I amended my statement to 10/14 or say 10/15 (which is still better than the average team can handle almost ever), then those types of games happen a ton on day 3.

    but what’s wrong with that??? it’s day 3, the best 128 teams out of 480… they should be hitting 10/15

    There is nothing wrong with it, I personally am fine with it that is why I wouldn’t advocate changing to 10 foot tables or anything like that.

    Perhaps the message I was going for in my earlier posting wasn’t clear. It was simply that without very much missing average teams feel like they can’t compete looking from afar (say 10/15). However, if you see the WS videos or hear about the WS games and everyone shoots about 50% or so as a team and games go more 10/20 it feels much more attainable to the average player.

    This is especially true for all the people who do not know how percentages work very well, and feel like they obviously shoot above 50% (I mean who doesn’t make over half their shots?). People with this type of mentality would be encouraged to come seeing lower shooting percentages in the WS as they will feel they can win.

    *My point was just that with lower actual shooting percentages by the pros you may see additional amateur participation*

    That said, none of this will change the fact that the referenced amateur teams will still shoot significantly worse then good players, and get blown out, likely to a greater degree than before as with a harder shot more skill will come into play.

    It was simply a point based on how attendance might be affected by perception.

    That said I think it is far and away better to not adjust the table to 10 feet, simply wanted to voice an additional point on Piotr’s side as long as I was just trying to bring new information to light in the argument (devil’s advocate one could say I suppose).

    Don’t worry I see where you are coming from as well, and I know you are a good player who generally posts good ideas. I was just trying to point out something that came to my mind.

    #35804

    wianek
    Member

    correct me if i’m wrong, but weren’t the shooting percentages of the finals of this world series something like this:

    Vince: 70%
    Pop: 69%
    Ron: 50%
    Andy: 35%

    so i don’t get where this 10/12 comes from? yeah it happens… but certainly isn’t the norm.

    10/12 is definitely not the norm, the norm for the best is probably closer to 10/15. 10/12 does happen frequently though and even 10/15 can be demoralizing.

    also, i’m pretty sure Pop was the only one who shot over 70% in the finals. i think Vince was around 65%.

    #35805

    dwissbrun2
    Member

    *My point was just that with lower actual shooting percentages by the pros you may see additional amateur participation*

    i think we all can agree that we want attendance up – whether at the wsobp or our local satellites. so discussion is good.

    #35806

    gshunt
    Member
    *My point was just that with lower actual shooting percentages by the pros you may see additional amateur participation*

    i think we all can agree that we want attendance up – whether at the wsobp or our local satellites. so discussion is good.

    True enough alright.

    #35807

    wianek
    Member

    i don’t know if anybody reads any pages prior to the current one, so i’ll take the moment to repeat myself.

    say the table is changed, or an extension is added. where does it end? maybe now people say the cups are too big… or too small. maybe we should play with 15 cups instead of 10. why is there rebuttal? on and on.

    I think the main problem with the current equipment / lean is the following:

    Most college kids play on 8 or 9ft tables with elbow rule. The tables they use are typically also taller than WS tables. These kids immediately get turned off (just look at comments on youtube videos) when they see extreme leaning on a table that’s on average shorter than what they are used to.

    I think their leaning complaints would be muted dramatically if you can make the argument that leaning is OK because the table is longer.

    I used to play on a variety of tables in college. On the shorter ones (7-8ft) people would bitch if you started leaning; however, whenever we played on long 10ft tables essentially everyone leaned – otherwise the games would take forever.

    #35808

    hersh13
    Member

    UG… As i previously stated, anyone who has a problem with leaning please contact me directly. Once I’ve handed you your ass playing elbows behind the table (as you said, the way of a man with intergrity), then quit bitchin. Me and Boomer of Team CABOOM went like 14-0 the other night against guys who think ‘Leaning is cheating. That’s bullshit. You guys are newbies.’ We trolled one team in 2 turns. All shut up, and walked away demoralized.

    Simply put, leaning is not the problem. Moving me away from the table when i shoot doesnt make you a better player. You WILL lose.

    "Elbow Rule players… I fuckin shower in that shit. I eat that shit for breakfast lunch and dinner."

    #35809

    wianek
    Member

    Simply put, leaning is not the problem. Moving me away from the table when i shoot doesnt make you a better player. You WILL lose.

    "Elbow Rule players… I fuckin shower in that shit. I eat that shit for breakfast lunch and dinner."

    I think you are missing the main point of this entire discussion. Nobody is claiming that the top players today will start losing with elbow rule or a longer table. We are simply trying to discuss ways of making the game more accesible to casual players. Better attendance benefits everyone.

    #35810

    gshunt
    Member
    i don’t know if anybody reads any pages prior to the current one, so i’ll take the moment to repeat myself.

    say the table is changed, or an extension is added. where does it end? maybe now people say the cups are too big… or too small. maybe we should play with 15 cups instead of 10. why is there rebuttal? on and on.

    I think the main problem with the current equipment / lean is the following:

    Most college kids play on 8 or 9ft tables with elbow rule. The tables they use are typically also taller than WS tables. These kids immediately get turned off (just look at comments on youtube videos) when they see extreme leaning on a table that’s on average shorter than what they are used to.

    I think their leaning complaints would be muted dramatically if you can make the argument that leaning is OK because the table is longer.

    I used to play on a variety of tables in college. On the shorter ones (7-8ft) people would bitch if you started leaning; however, whenever we played on long 10ft tables essentially everyone leaned – otherwise the games would take forever.

    You may be right about this point, however, I don’t think I personally agree on this one. I feel like nothing will change in people’s minds when looking at say videos on youtube where leaning is allowed even if it is a 20 foot table. However, if this were done I would be much more easily persuaded that people would be amicable to leaning when they came to their first tournament in person (essentially the phenomenon you mentioned from when you played in college). So I can see that half of the coin.

    However, I personally feel that such an opinion would not necessarily be universal. My early college days were played utilizing a hand rule by everyone we knew on probably 6 to 7 foot tables, which was fine. However, upon all of these same crowds acquiring 8 foot bing bong/bpong tables or 9 foot ping pong tables the hand rule was still enforced just as religiously as if the hand rule were sacrosanct (no matter how long the games took lol).

    Therefore, you might be right on table length being able to change leaning perceptions on whether or not it is ok, but I personally do not agree that it would (and we probably disagree simply based on the different actual experience we have seen with said phenomenon). However, I would guess that empirical testing is the only way to find out (of which sadly there is no simple method).

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