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Rebuttal rule debate

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This topic contains 23 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  rerun 2 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 24 total)
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  • #46653

    mikepop66
    Member

    So there was a rule debate this past weekend on the rules for rebuttaling 5 cups, but the same can apply to 7 or 9.
    Player A hits the 5 rack, Player B hits the 4, Player A hits the 3 rack, Player B hits the 2….then the fight was over if there was a choice for who shoots the last cup. Turns out Player A HAS to shoot the last cup. Now myself and most players in the bar thought it was a choice on which player can shoot the last cup. So I want to see what people think…

    My argument was that it is an odd number of cups just like when you rebuttal 3. When you rebuttal 3 you can choose who shoots the last cup, so I dont know why it should be different on 5, 7, or 9. I feel if both players hit all there rebuttal shots they earned the right to choose. I was looking at it similar to the special rule if its last cup vs last cup, if the first shooter hits the opposing team has a choice of who shoots to force OT.

    It was explained to me that the 3 cup rebuttal rule is also a specialty rule like last cup last cup, but i think it is conflicting. it was explained that the specialty 3 cup rebuttal rule was made to mimic hitting 2 shots and receiving 1 ball back, and that it used to not be like that, it was complained about and set back to a choice on last cup. now i agree on the choice but i dont agree why this doesnt apply on other odd number of cups to rebuttal.

    i was also welcomed to raising the issue to see how other players feel about this. because if we all agree one way or the other the rule will be set to our liking.

    Now in all my years, this has never came up as an issue to me which i thought was highly odd. the other players who have been playing for years also thought on the odd # you can choose your last cup shooter. and i am amazed that myself and many others didn’t really know about this.

    i think that it is a strategy when you are down to try to get to an odd # of cups to make the rebuttal a tad bit easier. i think it is hard enough to rebuttal with the ws rules, which is fine, but this scenario should be a choice. i mean if it is a 4 cup rebuttal player a hits, player b hits you don’t pretend it is a rollback and let your better player hit, then if he hits the other player can shoot last cup….so i don’t see why that is a specialty rule for the 3. if you are in rebuttals you cant treat it like a regulation possession.

    so please let me know what you think about choosing your last cup shooting while rebutalling an odd # of cups, thanks.

    #46654
    clawless
    clawless
    Member

    As the rules exist now, the only time you get to have a single player shoot back to back in rebuttal is with a 3 rack (1, 2, then choose the 3rd shooter). With any other number of cups remaining, it must alternate.

    As far as my opinion concerning change, however, I actually feel the opposite that you do Pop. I think that you should ALWAYS have to alternate in rebuttal, regardless of how many cups are left (even if there are 3). That makes more sense to me. Rebuttal should be incredibly difficult. The team that makes last cup first should be heavily favored, so there should never be a time (in my opinion) when rebuttal should be made any easier.

    #46655

    strider
    Member

    anything over one cup rebuttal (from AZ’s understanding) you HAVE to alternate players on EACH shot, not choosing who takes the last shot.

    EDIT: my bad yeah we let someone decide on 3 cup rebuttal also but i do not think just because 5,7, and 9 racks have the fact that they are odd in common means they should be treated the same. 3 cup rebuttal is treated exactly how any turns 3rd shot is treated. But i agree with Clawless it is not supposed to be an easy thing to do, if you want a certain player to shoot last cup then i believe you should have to think ahead and figure out if you should be shooting 1st or 2nd on that turn to line up the last cup for either yourself or your partner.

    #46656

    mikepop66
    Member

    i am just looking at it as you both hit your rebuttal shots, just like last cup on last cup, you should have a choice on who shoots it. its hard enough as it is to force overtime. i think forcing to alternate no matter what is forcing it more being on some form of strategy then letting the team choose based on their strengths on certain racks….there certainly is enough strategy choices being made during the game, to attempt to tie it should be a little more free. i also think this because in the beginning of the game you can be down due to a coin toss in most local tourneys or by what team has the choice of shot….so that is also luck, not strategy or skill.

    and on another note the ws rules are already incredibly complex. and i know most areas including mine have trouble getting new teams to conform because there are way to many complex rules, and now there is a specialty rule on last cup and one on the 3 rack. i think the 3 being a specialty rule isnt really need. itd make it a lot simpler if u have an even number of cups you have to alternate and hit same # of cups as your partner. if u have an odd # you have a choice if u happen to hit all the other cups first. i just think specialty rules like this is another reason why bp has been declining…they already hate leaning, they hate 1 ball back, they hate it not being shoot til u miss per player, and now they need to study a 5 page rule sheet to play a game they have known forever? idk, i dont see this being helpful in the long run. i think this rule is leaving it a little less up to skill.

    i just really think many players have never realized this. and i know for a fact this has been played the wrong way in many many games.

    #46657

    mikepop66
    Member

    anything over one cup rebuttal (from AZ’s understanding) you HAVE to alternate players on EACH shot, not choosing who takes the last shot.

    see strider, that is incorrect. 3 cup is a specialty rule. if you and your partner hit, u can choose who shoots last cup.

    #46658

    strider
    Member
    anything over one cup rebuttal (from AZ’s understanding) you HAVE to alternate players on EACH shot, not choosing who takes the last shot.

    see strider, that is incorrect. 3 cup is a specialty rule. if you and your partner hit, u can choose who shoots last cup.

    yeah my bad i edited my post but i didnt do it before you read it apparently lol

    #46659

    cjazel
    Member

    I think you need to keep the specialty rule for 3 cup rebuttals just because it wouldn’t be fair if Team A and Team B each have 3 cups remaining, Team A makes all 3 and gets to choose who shoots at the last cup but then force Team B to alternate even though it’s the same amount of shots. Same goes for shooting at the last cup, Team A has the choice to send it’;s better shooter up 1st and if he sinks it Team B is given the same opportunity. I actually agree with the way BPONG already has it set up but I can see why it is tough to understand or explain to new teams.

    EDIT: As for 5, 7, 9 cup rebuttals — I knew the ruling but really I’m not sure how often It’s gone un-noticed (I’m sure plenty). I could see arguments for both sides of the rule, I guess it’s best just to keep it in the back of your mind next time the team you’re up against is facing rebuttal.

    #46660

    mikepop66
    Member

    ^ i agree with your example. i just think 3, 5, 7, or 9 should all be the same. keep the rule but apply it to the odd #s for your reasoning. i mean not like it is an easy task, got to leave something up to skill.

    #46661

    ecastro715
    Member

    ^ i agree with your example. i just think 3, 5, 7, or 9 should all be the same. keep the rule but apply it to the odd #s for your reasoning. i mean not like it is an easy task, got to leave something up to skill.

    I’m not going to make any argument for the change since Pop has already covered it, but I agree with him. Not sure how everyone missed this before. If it wasn’t missed when the rules were written and this subject was kept in mind, then I feel it should be changed. It’s good for the game.

    #46662

    candyman
    Member

    Would you not just play it as actual shots in the game? Meaning, you have 5 cups, alternate shots, for first 2 shots, and third shot is chosen (rollback). And go back to alternating for last 2 cups?

    I do agree with Pops idea of last cup should be decided by shooting team with 5, 7, and 9.

    #46663

    mikevit
    Member

    So there was a rule debate this past weekend on the rules for rebuttaling 5 cups, but the same can apply to 7 or 9. Player A hits the 5 rack, Player B hits the 4, Player A hits the 3 rack, Player B hits the 2….then the fight was over if there was a choice for who shoots the last cup.

    Fight may be a srong word. I think it was more of a "you know they should have had the choice on last cup in that situation?" followed by "No, that only applies when a rebuttal turn starts with 3 cups remaining".

    Turns out Player A HAS to shoot the last cup. Now myself and most players in the bar thought it was a choice on which player can shoot the last cup.

    Good thing someone knew the rules :B

    My argument was that it is an odd number of cups just like when you rebuttal 3. When you rebuttal 3 you can choose who shoots the last cup, so I dont know why it should be different on 5, 7, or 9.

    The reason is because rebuttaling 3 cups (and only 3 cups) is though of as similar to a regular turn, whereas starting with 5,7,9 is obviously different. I say similar to, because once you miss any shot in a 3 cup rebuttal the turn and game are over.

    I feel if both players hit all there rebuttal shots they earned the right to choose. I was looking at it similar to the special rule if its last cup vs last cup, if the first shooter hits the opposing team has a choice of who shoots to force OT.

    Again, that is only if the turn STARTS OUT one cup to one cup. The rationale there being that since each team is beginning their turn the same way, it is only fair to allow the team shooting rebuttal shots the same amount of shots.

    It was explained to me that the 3 cup rebuttal rule is also a specialty rule like last cup last cup, but i think it is conflicting. it was explained that the specialty 3 cup rebuttal rule was made to mimic hitting 2 shots and receiving 1 ball back, and that it used to not be like that, it was complained about and set back to a choice on last cup. now i agree on the choice but i dont agree why this doesnt apply on other odd number of cups to rebuttal.

    Once again, because the rule is made to mimic a regular turn. A team cannot clear 5,7, or 9 cups in a regular turn unless cups are knocked over by the defending team.

    Now in all my years, this has never came up as an issue to me which i thought was highly odd. the other players who have been playing for years also thought on the odd # you can choose your last cup shooter. and i am amazed that myself and many others didn’t really know about this.

    The exact reason I told you guys the ruling made was correct was 2 fold:

    1. The exact same situation occured in a tournament at Miami Mike’s involving a 5 cup rebuttal. We consulted Skinny at the time and the ruling made then was that the players had to alternate.
    2. The way the rules are written specifically to let players know that shots must be alternated if 2 or more cups are remaining. The exception is as follows The only exception to this rule occurs when there are three cups remaining when redemption begins.

    i think that it is a strategy when you are down to try to get to an odd # of cups to make the rebuttal a tad bit easier. i think it is hard enough to rebuttal with the ws rules, which is fine, but this scenario should be a choice. i mean if it is a 4 cup rebuttal player a hits, player b hits you don’t pretend it is a rollback and let your better player hit, then if he hits the other player can shoot last cup….so i don’t see why that is a specialty rule for the 3. if you are in rebuttals you cant treat it like a regulation possession.

    I think the strategy should always be to hit as many cups as possible every turn. And rebuttal can mimic a regular turn when there are 3 cups remaining because that is the most amount of cups a team can make in a regular turn.

    #46664

    kingsbury
    Member

    i think the rule is fine the way it is.. just have the better player shoot first and he will take more shots and get the last cup…

    #46665

    sfoster
    Member

    pop this rule was made with OT in mind. it wasn’t made bc there is an odd number of cups, it’s made bc there are 3 cups exactly, which is how many you can make in a normal turn anyway.

    lets say both teams hit 9 in a row.. well that’s 3 OTs that the same team got to start with the balls.
    all 3 times they can have the lesser player open on a 3 rack, then the pro can clean up the last 2.

    the other team doesn’t have this open, and they can be stuck 3 OTs in a row with this disadvantage.

    #46666

    sauce1
    Member

    pop this rule was made with OT in mind. it wasn’t made bc there is an odd number of cups, it’s made bc there are 3 cups exactly, which is how many you can make in a normal turn anyway.

    lets say both teams hit 9 in a row.. well that’s 3 OTs that the same team got to start with the balls.
    all 3 times they can have the lesser player open on a 3 rack, then the pro can clean up the last 2.

    the other team doesn’t have this open, and they can be stuck 3 OTs in a row with this disadvantage.

    Well said Sean.
    And the simple sollution in the 5, 7 and 9 scenario which I already posted on Pops Facebook wall.
    Is the stronger player starts out. This will gaurantee he has last look.

    #46667

    dwissbrun2
    Member

    Vit & Foster have it right. I remember when we debated this scenario a few years ago.

    The choice during rebuttal when you have a 3 rack was a response to people feeling it was unfair that your opponents could finish the game by hitting 2 cups with choice of shooter on their 3rd shot. Thus the community decided it was fair to give the rebutting team that choice.

    IMO leave as is. Or eliminate the choice all together

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