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the champ
Joined: Sep 20th 2006, 08:02 pm

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 11:10 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • This post might not be popular on this message board because the posters here are 99% very serious players.
     
    I think the key for both companies (and I see them more as colleagues than competitors) is catering to the average players.  I'm concerned the emergence of "pro players" who travel around winning tournaments is unsustainable.  The world series of poker gets bigger and bigger because everyone THINKS they have a chance to win.  When a casual player shows up at a satellite and gets beat by a team shooting 10 for 12 their hopes are destroyed.  
     
    As much as we'd like to think of pong as a sport, in truth it's a lot closer to poker: a skill game played for money.  There is an endless supply of dead money in poker because almost EVERYONE wins at one time or another.  People complain about people making stupid plays and getting lucky, but truth is, if the good players always won soon there'd be no one left for them to play with.  When I hear about Vince and Dane winning 3000 satellites I think great for them, but I wonder how many teams did they stomp that decided there was no point in going to the world series?  Even if its only 3 or 4 then we've missed out on growing the game.
     
    The dead money dries up eventually.  It may take a while, but if the average players don't get any positive reinforcement they stop paying to play.  The cash tournaments in Jersey dried up completely.  There used to be two 1000$ tourneys every week like clockwork - but the average teams eventually quit showing up and now they're finished.  I think the reason they lasted as long as they did is the rules encouraged volatility so even the bad teams would win quite a bit - 6 cup, no redemption, big huge cups.
     
    I'm not sure what the answer is.  A consolation bracket for the 2/3 who don't make day 3? Tweaking rules to increase volatility? I definitely wouldn't allow anyone to win more than one bid.  I think longer and higher tables will be necessary.  As Piotr Wianecki told me, losing to a team shooting 10-18 is a lot less demoralizing than losing to a team shooting 10-12.
     
    If you want to play for the love of the game fine, but if you want to play for money you need average players thinking they have a chance. I don't see either company right now addressing this.
  • Last edited on Nov 20th 2009, 11:14 am
DrunkenBear
Joined: Feb 19th 2009, 09:01 am

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    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 11:35 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • I love this post
     
    This is my biggest challenge right now.  Vince, Dane, Nick V and Andy have dominated our tournaments.  Any recreational players have dropped out and stopped coming. Now I am having to start counting on only "pro players"  and that will even shorten up once more people start running more and more satellites.
     
    I have been trying to find a happy middle but everytime I come up with something some side bitches.
     
    Ban Rule - After a certain amount of wins you are banned from competition. All the recreational players like it but the pro players hate it becasue it lessens the competition and takes money out of their pockets.
     
    Can't play in certain tournaments if you won  a bid - Anyone who has not won a bid loves this one however many people who have won bids wont come out and that may cut my field in half.
     
    The one that I am currently going to test out is, you can not play on the same team if you won a bid.  So Vince could play wiht 3 different players and win but can never play with the same person twice.
     
    This is my biggest concern because many average teams are not coming back and I need to figure a way to make everyone happy.
     
    Maybe I jsut sponsor Vince and Dane to go to everyone else's tournaments and win and stay away from mine!!!!!!!!
adon14x
Joined: Jul 23rd 2009, 07:31 am

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    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 11:39 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • The best thing that WBPT did was make that one win a month rule and you 2 ppl who have won can't play together. This keeps the average players showing up. I know I will be bringing friends that aren't that good to play with me now because in the NY/NJ area most of the real good players already have a bid. I wouldn't mind seeing the WSOBP adopt something similar because the good players are still going to win but after the first one it will be with average partners and players. It is fun playing with new people and I think this gives out the best chance, and I think it is great for expanding, with many more people winning. Once they win they will keep coming back.
corbinmartin14
Joined: Mar 10th 2009, 01:56 am

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    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 11:46 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • Good post. I think you made some good points. But the thing is, beer pong is not going anywhere, people are still going to be playing in at college campuses. And when that happens, there are going to be players at those parties who think they are the best and want to prove it at tournaments. Sure they could go there, play once, and realize they stand no shot. But, being most players are guys, they will think the other team got lucky and that no one can possibly be better than them and keep showing up. I have not won one satellite yet but i keep showing up and playing.
     
    I think that tournament beer pong has not yet reached its full potential for one reason... it's not on TV. As soon as BDS sell the rights to a network and get WSOBP on television there will be a MASSIVE boom in interest. Just like poker
     
    But unlike poker, there will probably won't be a Cinderella story like Chris Moneymaker. Which is OK.
     
    When the UIGEA (Unlawful Internet Gaming Enforcement Act) passed a couple years ago people thought that was the end to online poker. Indeed the games got harder as the fish were less inclined to put money on the sites. But guess what, there is still a TON of fish on there that think they are the best and keep losing money (ie Ron). And people DO get lucky and win local beer pong tournaments, I see it all the time.
     
    I think local tournaments needs to offer prizes that are big enough for local players to come out and play, but small enough to keep the sharks from traveling to them.
     
    IDK what i'm trying to say here. I guess what i'm getting at is that beer pong in general is not going anywhere and tournament beer pong has not reached its full potential. We have a looooong way to go.
the champ
Joined: Sep 20th 2006, 08:02 pm

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 11:54 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "corbinmartin14"
    Sure they could go there, play once, and realize they stand no shot. But, being most players are guys, they will think the other team got lucky and that no one can possibly be better than them and keep showing up.

    You're absolutely right.  It takes a lonnnng time for some guys to realize they have no chance.  Us Jersey guys have many thousands in our pockets from them.  But eventually they did quit.  I wish they had had even a tiny more success - they'd probably still be playing.
     

    And people DO get lucky and win local beer pong tournaments, I see it all the time.

    That's good to hear, but it just hasn't been my experience.  Maybe it's because every tournament I go to is filled with the best players, but I NEVER see an average team getting lucky and winning.  Maybe once in 3 years - and that was 6 cup games on huge cups.
  • Last edited on Nov 20th 2009, 11:55 am
corbinmartin14
Joined: Mar 10th 2009, 01:56 am

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    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 11:59 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "the
    "corbinmartin14"
    Sure they could go there, play once, and realize they stand no shot. But, being most players are guys, they will think the other team got lucky and that no one can possibly be better than them and keep showing up.

    You're absolutely right.  It takes a lonnnng time for some guys to realize they have no chance.  Us Jersey guys have many thousands in our pockets from them.  But eventually they did quit.  I wish they had had even a tiny more success - they'd probably still be playing.
     

    And people DO get lucky and win local beer pong tournaments, I see it all the time.

    That's good to hear, but it just hasn't been my experience.  Maybe it's because every tournament I go to is filled with the best players, but I NEVER see an average team getting lucky and winning.  Maybe once in 3 years - and that was 6 cup games on huge cups.

    Yeah Jersey is a little different. But Beer Pong is played everywhere, so it does happen
bizness
Joined: Jul 24th 2008, 10:20 am

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    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 12:04 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • the champ hit this one dead on.. sure good teams and good players wont be going anywhere, however for the GROWTH of pong I'm not sure anyone winning 10 satellites is really helping grow anything. I've seen tourneys die first hand living in NY and watching Ron Hamiltons's partner smash pretty much every tourney til it stopped happening. True its only cash tourneys, but eventually if teams at these tourneys felt they had a chance to win and weren't getting beaten by 70-90% shooters whenever they showed up, they might eventually make the trip out to Vegas in January. True, the WSOBP gets more and more teams each year, but is it as many as they COULD be getting had states enforced a 1 bid and done rule?
    I think this would help for sure, but also, playing devils advocate here, good teams from NY for example who only lose to premiere squads like Smashing Time, Not Even Close, etc, know that they're still better than a good percentage of the country and are still very interested in making the trip to Vegas at all costs. I would hope the same is true in places like Michigan, people should know Dane and Vince are great players and if a team loses to them in the finals or in a tourney, I don't think it would discourage them as much considering their skill level. What the champ seems to be talking about here are the recreational players who maybe aren't up to date on their pong knowledge.
     
    The alternate side of this argument is that players good enough to win multiple bids should be allowed to, and unfortunately there's not really a happy medium to nationally enforce a rule that says you can only win with someone who hasn't won a bid before. I think this would cause alot of trouble in the long-run trying to police this rule but I think its a pretty fair concept.
     

    Like the champ eluded to, I believe its time to change the dynamics of the game a little bit. I think its alot more fair for everyone to have to adjust to new tables rather than everyone just keep practicing and playing on 8ft tables until they're as good as Pop. I believe it levels the playing field, and the change is actually long overdue. Everyone would be forced to adjust to the new tables, pong as a "sport" would appeal to a wider range of people, and all of the dedicated players that pong already has would obviously stick around too because they love the game.
  • Last edited on Nov 20th 2009, 12:09 pm
wianek
Joined: Aug 20th 2008, 10:55 pm

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    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 12:07 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • Jamie, I've discussed this with you already, but I'll post it here as well.
     

    First of all, I completely agree that in order to grow, the game needs to appeal more to average tournament players as well as tournament rookies. Don't get me wrong, I personally love the game how it is, but I've seen the same pattern Jamie mentioned - tournaments used to have much bigger crowds, but now some players have gotten so good that the average players feel like they have no shot at winning, so why show up at all? This is especially true after they get blown out by a team going 10/12 and feel like the whole time they were getting "dunked" on.
     
    So in my opinion, two things need to happen - shooting percentages need to decrease and the perception of the "dunk" needs to go away and I think the best way to achieve both is by making the tables longer and taller.  The good teams would still win on the new tables; however, the perception of the "dunk" would go away and shooting percentages would drop. The lower average percentages should give the mediocre teams a sense that they actually have a chance of competing - losing to a team that went 10/18 isn't nearly as discouraging as losing to a team that went 10/12.
ronsmashingtime
Joined: Sep 30th 2007, 11:51 am

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    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 12:48 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "wianek"
    Jamie, I've discussed this with you already, but I'll post it here as well.
     
     
    First of all, I completely agree that in order to grow, the game needs to appeal more to average tournament players as well as tournament rookies. Don't get me wrong, I personally love the game how it is, but I've seen the same pattern Jamie mentioned - tournaments used to have much bigger crowds, but now some players have gotten so good that the average players feel like they have no shot at winning, so why show up at all? This is especially true after they get blown out by a team going 10/12 and feel like the whole time they were getting "dunked" on.
     
    So in my opinion, two things need to happen - shooting percentages need to decrease and the perception of the "dunk" needs to go away and I think the best way to achieve both is by making the tables longer and taller.  The good teams would still win on the new tables; however, the perception of the "dunk" would go away and shooting percentages would drop. The lower average percentages should give the mediocre teams a sense that they actually have a chance of competing - losing to a team that went 10/18 isn't nearly as discouraging as losing to a team that went 10/12.

    so lets have a 50k elbow rule tourny right after the regular wsobp .. either way ..me and pop will previal ahhahaha
dwissbrun2
Joined: Nov 15th 2006, 10:36 pm

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 12:49 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • there are some really good thoughts in these posts, and def some legitimate claims.  the pro vs. recreational dilema is real.
     
    here's my 2 cents:
     
    pros play for fun & money
     
    recreationals play for fun
     
    so to attract the latter you need to make the tourneys as friendly as possible.  hosting tournaments on anything other than a weekend is a mistake (the majority of people work m - f).  and hosting tournaments in the afternoon is a mistake.  
     
    i think the winning formula to have both sides keep coming is to create an environment of fun.  you need to have drink specials so that eveyone can get fucked up on the cheap.  you need to have a lot of space so that people can hang out and talk with their friends during the tournament.  have a place that has tv's, video games, ect ect.  maybe have side events going on... like the last cup challenge in WSOBPII.  i'm really not that creative of a person... i'm sure there are better ideas out there, so just come up with them.
     
    so yes, i think people are right... if the common recreational players show up to a saturday tourney at 1pm, stand around for 1-2 hours to go 0-2 in the tourney, and then drive home sober at 3pm, then they're probably not going to come back.
     
    nick v used to run a tournament on michigan's campus every monday night at 9-10pm.  there were consistently 50-70 teams showing up every monday.  not b/c they all thought they'd win... but because that was the place to be.  it was a shit ton of fun.
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