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tpfeliz
Joined: Dec 14th 2006, 11:27 pm

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    Posted: Dec 21st 2008, 03:20 pm
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • I read the rules section about defense, but i couldn't find any language about this particular instance.
     
    Say a person shoots on a cup, and it spins around very rapidly as it spins out of the cup, but it also causes the cup to wobble off the table.  
     
    I was under the impression that as part of defense if you have quick enough reflexes you can actually stabilize the cup with you hand before it wobbles off the table.  Is this true, skinny/billy?
skinny
Joined: Jan 1st 1991, 12:00 am

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    Posted: Dec 21st 2008, 04:13 pm
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • Tom,
       I think the rules as written are ambiguous on this one. As such, I will let you know how we would rule it, based on a) our best interpretation of the rules, and b) our intent in writing the rules.
     
       From Section V-J-2: "Cups may NOT be moved or adjusted while the ball is being released, or while the ball is in mid-flight. Doing so incurs a 1-cup penalty."
     
       Now, I realize that in the situation you're talking about, the ball is not still in mid-flight, but I think our intent there was to mean that you can't move the cup while the ball is in play. Further, on this particular point, our feeling is that when a cup moves as a result of getting hit by a ball, it increases the chance that the ball will spin out. I.e., if the cup were filled with more liquid, there's a chance that the ball would have spun but then sank, but instead, the movement of cup facilitated the ball flying out. Therefore, our intent was to say that if the ball goes in the cup, and that action leads to the cup falling, the cup should count as hit.
      
       So, in other words, No - You can not interfere with the movement of a cup until play is over. We will codify this in next year's rules.
     
    Hope that helps
    Skinny
J-Dub
Joined: Oct 3rd 2008, 06:01 pm

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    Posted: Dec 22nd 2008, 01:42 am
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • We were in a satellite tourney earlier this year and had this happen to us.  The other team had one cup to shoot at...they hit the front of the cup (but did not make it) and the cup wobbled off the end of the table.  However, we were able to catch the cup and keep it on the table, preventing it from falling off and spilling.
     
    Because the ball did not go in the cup to begin with, it was ruled still in play and the game continued.
     
    I think if a ball goes in the cup, then it counts as make regardless of whether the cup falls off the table, but if it doesn't go in, then you can save it from falling if your reflexes are good enough.  If it counted either way, then someone could just whip the ball as hard as possible at the cup trying to knock it over to win.
dwissbrun2
Joined: Nov 15th 2006, 10:36 pm

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    Posted: Dec 22nd 2008, 08:21 am
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • "skinny"
    Therefore, our intent was to say that if the ball goes in the cup, and that action leads to the cup falling, the cup should count as hit.
     
    Skinny

    that's good to know.  so if the ball spins in the cup, knocks the cup off the table and the ball goes flying somewhere, but a player catches the cup, then the cup still counts as hit.
     
    just my suggestion, but i would make sure that the rest of the staff knows this one (the ones who will be ref'n)
prusch
Joined: Aug 22nd 2006, 08:01 pm

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    Posted: Dec 22nd 2008, 01:20 pm
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • "dwissbrun2"
    just my suggestion, but i would make sure that the rest of the staff knows this one (the ones who will be ref'n)

    Good call.  I actually think that there should be a cheat sheet for everyone on the obscure rulings - or a cheat sheet specifically for the refs.
     
    There's always the abbreviated list of rules - the pocket set if you will - but everyone knows that there are mid-turn reracks, or that only one ball is rolled back.  The questions are never about standard play, but always obscure shit.  And since a lot of the people helping aren't players necessarily - they aren't always the most informed about the obscure rulings.
tpfeliz
Joined: Dec 14th 2006, 11:27 pm

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    Posted: Dec 22nd 2008, 01:28 pm
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • so what is the ruling if the last cup is knocked over or off the table, but the ball doesn't go in the cup?  I was in a SoCal tourney this summer, and this happened.  
     
    Peter from SoCalBeerPong said that the cup does not count as a hit per WSOBP rules and must be placed back on the table.  This would be in disagreement of what you are saying, Skinny...
     
    also by holding the cup in place you are not really "moving" it per se, but i guess how this could cause some dispute in the tourney...
skinny
Joined: Jan 1st 1991, 12:00 am

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    Posted: Dec 22nd 2008, 01:33 pm
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • "tpfeliz"
    so what is the ruling if the last cup is knocked over or off the table, but the ball doesn't go in the cup?  I was in a SoCal tourney this summer, and this happened.  
     
    Peter from SoCalBeerPong said that the cup does not count as a hit per WSOBP rules and must be placed back on the table.  This would be in disagreement of what you are saying, Skinny...
     
    also by holding the cup in place you are not really "moving" it per se, but i guess how this could cause some dispute in the tourney...

    Peter's ruling is correct, and in agreement with what I'm saying (i think).
     
    From V-J-2-F:
     
    "Balls Knocking Over Cups: Cups should be filled to the point where it is not possible to knock the cup over with the ball. However, in the event that a ball does knock a cup over, the shot is counted as a hit, UNLESS it is absolutely clear that the ball had not entered the cup before it was knocked over, in which case the cup is reset and the shot is considered a miss."
     
    In the instance you are currently talking about, it was clear that the ball had not entered the cup, so a miss is the correct call. In your first example, the ball had entered the cup, but then came out. That is counted as a hit.
     
    Skinny
skinny
Joined: Jan 1st 1991, 12:00 am

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    Posted: Dec 22nd 2008, 01:37 pm
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • We are setting things up so that all obscure rule questions will get funneled to the 'head' refs. The head refs will be Billy, Duncan, Myself, and three staff members who will always be in the 'pits'. All of these people will be very well versed on all of the obscurities.
     
    -Skinny
  • Last edited on Dec 22nd 2008, 01:37 pm
tpfeliz
Joined: Dec 14th 2006, 11:27 pm

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    Posted: Dec 22nd 2008, 04:17 pm
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • "skinny"
    "tpfeliz"
    so what is the ruling if the last cup is knocked over or off the table, but the ball doesn't go in the cup?  I was in a SoCal tourney this summer, and this happened.  
     
    Peter from SoCalBeerPong said that the cup does not count as a hit per WSOBP rules and must be placed back on the table.  This would be in disagreement of what you are saying, Skinny...
     
    also by holding the cup in place you are not really "moving" it per se, but i guess how this could cause some dispute in the tourney...

    Peter's ruling is correct, and in agreement with what I'm saying (i think).
     
    From V-J-2-F:
     
    "Balls Knocking Over Cups: Cups should be filled to the point where it is not possible to knock the cup over with the ball. However, in the event that a ball does knock a cup over, the shot is counted as a hit, UNLESS it is absolutely clear that the ball had not entered the cup before it was knocked over, in which case the cup is reset and the shot is considered a miss."
     
    In the instance you are currently talking about, it was clear that the ball had not entered the cup, so a miss is the correct call. In your first example, the ball had entered the cup, but then came out. That is counted as a hit.
     
    Skinny

    actually, in the instance that i am talking about... the ball toliet bowled around the inside of the rim then popped out.  The cup then fell off the table with the velocity of the spinning ball.  From what you are saying, it should have been ruled the other way (as a hit cup).  Right?
wianek
Joined: Aug 20th 2008, 10:55 pm

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    Posted: Dec 22nd 2008, 04:47 pm
    Post subject: Defense on Spinning Cup

  • i remember this situation. it seemed like this was some special rule only for the last cup.
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