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sfoster
Joined: Nov 30th 2007, 06:29 am

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 01:02 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • I realize it may be a little late for this year, but I would like to say that I am not a big fan of the cups currently in use.
     
    There is almost no rim on them at all. Basically you can just throw the ball randomly up in the air, and it is likely to splash somewhere.
     
    To me it is kind of frustrating to play against people that don't have much skill, but instead throw floaters and then get lucky with 3 or 6 balls in a row by hitting scattered and back row cups, and I feel that the current equipment encourage this sort of luck factor and discourage aiming.
     
    Now let me say I am NOT SUGGESTING WE USE 18OZ SOLO CUPS.
    I am going to compare them to 18oz solo because that is what I have on hand.
     
    This picture is drawn to a scale of 64 pixels for every 1 inch
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/ … alysis.gif
     
    Going by this, if you randomly throw a ball within that red zone drawn above, the RK16 have 59.65% chance of being made by a random ball, and the 18 oz solo have 57.45% chance of being made by a random ball.
     
    Essentially the 18oz cup has only a 3.6% larger mouth, but nearly twice the lip-gap between cups. (The solo don't narrow on the bottom, so they're also less likely to tip over but of course more liquid can fix that)
     
    Now I have made some mistakes in the past, so anybody can feel free to correct me here - but either way it seems obvious that the thin black line separating the RK16 is tiny.
     
    The non-rim on the RK16 seems to be so lethal, that it's more likely reward skill-less floater shots than larger cups.
     
    On top of that, if you're aiming for a specific cup -- you're LESS likely to hit the RK16 because you aim for a smaller area.
     
    So in summary it seems the RK16 may be harder when it comes down to last cup, but for the other 9 cups in the game they're working against anybody that aims.
     
    I am not suggesting that we use 18oz, they are just what I had on hand to measure.
    Is it perhaps possible for future years to get a 16oz cup that has a wider rim to separate the cups from one another?
  • Last edited on Nov 18th 2008, 01:36 pm
dub
Joined: Jan 1st 1991, 12:00 am

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 01:20 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • Haha....damn, dude. Bored today?
sfoster
Joined: Nov 30th 2007, 06:29 am

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 01:38 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • "dub"
    Haha....damn, dude. Bored today?

    Well, I have plenty to do so I guess I am just procrastinating a little haha.
     
    Plus I had a bunch of cups hit against me last tourney by some random fucking airballs like you wouldn't believe.
  • Last edited on Nov 18th 2008, 01:39 pm
solidgold
Joined: Aug 16th 2007, 09:15 am

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 02:17 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • "sfoster"
    Going by this, if you randomly throw a ball within that red zone drawn above, the RK16 have 59.65% chance of being made by a random ball, and the 18 oz solo have 57.45% chance of being made by a random ball.

    How did you come up with these numbers?
wianek
Joined: Aug 20th 2008, 10:55 pm

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    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 02:26 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • foster, i think one thing you didn't take into account is that the red zone for the 18oz cups is larger than for the 16oz cups so although you have a higher chance of hitting a 16oz cup if you randomly toss it up in the 16oz red zone, you still may have a larger chance of hitting an 18oz cup by throwing in the red zone since the 18oz red zone is larger. i'm not going to run the numbers, but i'm guessing if you take this into account the % will be pretty much the same.
     
    also your % calculations are only correct if you assume the ball is dropping vertically down, which it never does in a real beer pong shot which further diminishes the 16oz cup advantage, so it's actually probably more likely for a team shooting at general areas to beat a team aiming at specific cups with the 18oz solo cups than the current 16oz cups.
     
    overall, the better player should still win, regardless of the cups. sure, there may be a situation where a crappy team just gets lucky by shooting at a general area, but instead of changing the cups i would make the final 32 team tourney a double elimination best of 3 series. i think that would have a larger impact on making sure the more skillful team wins than changing cups. though, i would have nothing against also changing the current cups to 16oz cups with larger rims.
     

  • Last edited on Nov 18th 2008, 02:31 pm
sfoster
Joined: Nov 30th 2007, 06:29 am

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 03:06 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • "solidgold"
    "sfoster"
    Going by this, if you randomly throw a ball within that red zone drawn above, the RK16 have 59.65% chance of being made by a random ball, and the 18 oz solo have 57.45% chance of being made by a random ball.

    How did you come up with these numbers?

    I took the area of the red, then I took the area of the inner circles that are the hittable area.
    hittable area / total red area = those numbers
sfoster
Joined: Nov 30th 2007, 06:29 am

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 03:14 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • "wianek"
    foster, i think one thing you didn't take into account is that the red zone for the 18oz cups is larger than for the 16oz cups so although you have a higher chance of hitting a 16oz cup if you randomly toss it up in the 16oz red zone, you still may have a larger chance of hitting an 18oz cup by throwing in the red zone since the 18oz red zone is larger. i'm not going to run the numbers, but i'm guessing if you take this into account the % will be pretty much the same.

    I thought about this, but unless you want to tell me you're more likely to miss a 10-rack with 18oz than you are to miss a 10-rack with rk16 then it's not an issue.
     
    I figured hitting a large group of cups was pretty much on equal ground since they are both so large. If you can hit the red zone in either case, then the % remains proportional. Basically aim at a group, if you can avoid hitting the table or airballing then the size of the red zone is irrelevant.
     
    "wianek"
    also your % calculations are only correct if you assume the ball is dropping vertically down, which it never does in a real beer pong shot which further diminishes the 16oz cup advantage

    I don't see how that make a huge difference. The rims are circular all around, which includes less rim between a cup and one behind it. Plus you're going to have the same arc on either set of cups. My main point is that there is hardly any wall separating two adjacent RK16s, and also keep in mind we are talking about lobbing floaters without aiming so there is a lot more arc here than a traditional shot
     
    "wianek"
    overall, the better player should still win, regardless of the cups. sure, there may be a situation where a crappy team just gets lucky by shooting at a general area, but instead of changing the cups i would make the final 32 team tourney a double elimination best of 3 series.

    That would be at least a 12 hour tournament. Kind of obscene IMO, how about we just simply change the cups instead? lol. That seems much less obtrusive.
     
    As far as who should win or not, try feeding me that story after you get knocked out of the WSOBP next year by a player hitting back and middle row cups against you for 2 or 3 rollbacks in a row.
  • Last edited on Nov 18th 2008, 03:17 pm
travis14
Joined: Jan 1st 1991, 12:00 am

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 03:39 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • foster just throwing this out there. But some people dont go in order when they shoot cups like you. I dont randomly throw the ball in the air, i aim for certain cups but i do not start off with the front cup, i have no idea why but i never do. I know some people that just throw it in the air and hit the back row and i can say that is prolly a lucky throw in the air and just hitting the back row.
    But all because someone doesnt go in order starting with the front cup doesnt mean its all luck. I actually start with the 2nd row for some odd reason and it works for me just fine.
    But i do understand what your trying to say but dont say people are throwing it up in the air just getting lucky because they dont go in the same order you do
dub
Joined: Jan 1st 1991, 12:00 am

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 03:40 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • At the end of the day, isn't this sort of the same argument as the people who complain about leaning? I mean, everyone is shooting at the same cups. Everyone who makes it to that last day is a pretty solid team, so it's not like you're losing to 2 girls off the street who go "WHOOO!!!!!" and hug every time they hit a cup.
prusch
Joined: Aug 22nd 2006, 08:01 pm

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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 18th 2008, 03:41 pm
    Post subject: Different Cups

  • I agree with foster's pain... having a team make a game competitive based on lucky shots, vs. your skilled approach, is frustrating.  The math is somewhat questionable (I don't think a pure lobber would shoot 50% on a full rack, and a good pure lobber isn't going to hit outside of the triangular area) - but the point is there... a bigger rim helps separate the cups, creating more area for a misdirected shot to bounce off of.  
     
    At the same time, an argument against worrying about this is the "it's part of the game" speech.  As long as cups are placed in a 10 cup triangle, there will be lucky shots made.
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